When arguing with someone who is deluded

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It seems self-evident by Israel not agreeing to allow the Palestinians liberation in their own state or citizenship within Israel it stands to reason perpetual conflict and oppression is the default choice. This is why those who love Israel cannot under any moral rational support the state. It is impossible to defend the indefensible. A decision - be it by default or otherwise - to continue the oppression of people is morally repugnant. I see all the good in Israel but at the same time the bad consumes it like cancer. This is a bridge too far to cross for most people.

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  Maz214

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  A "Palestinian" state, no, the "Palestinian" project exists solely to obviate the existence of Jews from the Holy Land. There is no "oppression" of a people who are explicitly at war with you. You can be soldiers or victims, not both.

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  I can't help your delusions. I don't see soldiers, tanks, airplanes, or navy. I see human beings, mostly kids and women, if you dare or CARE to look at all the victims of Israeli might. You want to rationalize in such black and white terms to make it more morally palatable, that is your prerogative. That doesn't change the fact you are wrong and deluded. The notion Israel has anything to fear from rock throwers and kite flyers is a sick joke but I am not laughing!

Trump deal or no deal

 It is difficult to impossible to defend the Palestinian Authority and it's current leadership. The fact Mahmoud Abbas remains in power and rules with a iron fist is further reasons to be disgusted with how the Palestinians have allowed themselves to be dragged down a dead end road. There is nothing good that can come out of a dictatorship. There is nothing good to come out of tyrannical rule, be it by Fatah or Hamas. The tyranny secularists or Islamist's engage in is two sides of the same coin. They both want to maintain a grip on power and the people be damned. 

The Trump administration is in the process of presenting a plan that they argue is aimed at finding a final resolution to this seemingly intractable and insoluble conflict. A plan which the Palestinians have rejected before they even heard it. I don't dismiss the fact this plan will be co-written by Zionist hardliners - be they Jewish-American or Israeli officials - and undoubtedly be designed to benefit Israel the most. This is a fact of life when you have the United States acting as an Israeli puppet. Nevertheless, to dismiss the lessons of the past would be a grave error for the Palestinians. Each time there is a deal of some kind or an opportunity to improve the lives of the Palestinian people - which ALWAYS falls short of Palestinian demands and aspirations - but nevertheless it is something much better than what their so called leaders have been able to achieve by means of violence, rejection or resistance - hard to see why this time around when there is a serious deal in the works by Trump that the Palestinians would fall in the same trap that they always fall into by missing the only train available. In 1939, had they negotiated a deal with the Brits, could have salvaged something then. Had they accepted UN resolution 181, a Palestinian state would exist today. Had they negotiated after the 6 day war, no settlements then, they could have gotten most if not all land held after the war. This insanity continues with President Carter, when they refused to take part in negotiations. Egypt got all their land back and billions in aid while the Palestinians continue to suffer and got nothing.  The Clinton era saw more of the same with the Palestinians. The reality is they cannot and will not ever be in a position of strength when it comes to negotiations with Israel and get everything they want. Their position has dwindled over the years to the point of irrelevance.  This is because of failed leadership not seizing the moment when it presented itself. They need to start thinking about their people and what is possible over what is not ideologically palatable. 

It is possible the Palestinians can improve their lives dramatically if they abandon hard-line positions on land and statehood. They can reap enormous benefits by trying to work with Israel - rather than fight with them over land that is already lost. 

  

Recent exchange on JPOST

Maz2214

America and Israel complaining of bias at the UN is like the mafia complaining about crime. It is a joke! Here are some facts, of the 72 total vetoes the US ever used, 43 were used to protect Israel. Go figure!

BlueController to Maz214

 Here, I have figured it for you - if US were not using the veto as a part of the game, the anti-Israel bias would go beyond ridiculous and the lack of credibility and the crisis of trust and abandonment UN goes through now would come sooner and much harder. These votes benefited UN more than Israel, protecting the former from itself and hyperinflation of its already worthless resolutions.

Maz214 to BlueController

 The only worthless resolution is UN resolution 181 many would argue.  To follow your logic all the 43 vetoes were legitimate because Israel has never done anything wrong.  I know you believe that and I can't help the fact some can't see beyond their schnozzle and believe they are God's chosen.  The truth is the UN is corrupt and it was corrupt back in 1947 as well. We can agree on that right?

BlueController to Maz214

I do not remember the worthless UN resolutions by numbers. do not know how following my logic ascends Israel to the status of a saint entity. I do not know how the God's chosen fixation must do something with that or with me.

I also do not really know if UN was corrupt in 1947. What I do know, and it just might be relevant to your next question, that UN has no power under its own regulation to create independent states. So the idea that UN created state of Israel belongs to the same department of "Creation of Israel was the result of Holocaust". In the alphabetical index, that department shows between 'Br...' and 'Bt..."

Maz214 to BlueControler

Fair enough, I did not address your point directly. The notion those vetoes did more to help the UN as a institution than the state of Israel is absurd. Let us put aside the question who they did help and agree such vetoes did hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace?  Keep in mind they are the victims of occupation and oppression. It is easy to argue those vetoes hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace. The UN charter states: The UN Charter sets out four main purposes: Maintaining worldwide peace and security. Developing relations among nations. Fostering cooperation between nations in order to solve economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian international problems".  The vetoes served to derail meeting those objectives.  Some will argue because Israel can count on American veto it does not need to make peace much less feel the need to end the longest running military occupation in modern times.  The vetoes serve as a get out of jail card.  It stands to reason if criminals get a get out of jail card crime will be much higher than it is today.

BlueController to Maz214

 Your last claim holds. Human behavior can be that simple in simple circumstances. However, the step of induction to American veto as the get out of jail card fits into more complex situation. A situation in which UN activities are not only feedback mechanism, and far from being in the few top ones. There are trade and other ties with many countries in the world that would be immediately affected. I do not know how you view the UN role in the world, I do not see countries taking orders from it. Israel sells and buys by billions with countries like Britain and EU members which are known to be very sensitive on the subject of Palestinian rights violations. Trade ties with Muslim countries amount to billions as well. Part Turkey and Azerbajan (strategic partner on Iranian border) with whom the ties are open, there are others, even those with whom there are no diplomatic relations, who buy goods after they are white-labeled. The former keep an eye on the Palestinian affairs. The later could be gone in an eye-blink.

American Jews become more and more pro-Palestinian. Inexcusable escalation could turn away even those who are not indoctrinated. That could eventually undermine the American support we talk about altogether.Not last but definitely, absolutely not the least, even if we stay in the egoistic plan and keep the morals out of the simplistic behavior model, enough Israelis are smart enough to realize that crimes against others are danger to ones' own society.

PurpleDog to BlueController

 I must admit that I was disappointed to see extent of support of El'or Azariya ('the Hebron Shooter)' . On the other hand I could see another time correlation between success, intelligence on one hand, and decency , morality and comprehension how acceptance of such a crime cold quickly derail our society, on the other. BTW, this correlation is how I explain the frequent differences in understanding of situation of Israel and its needs between leaders of the world and the more loud and easily agitated parts of their nations.In the bottom line, I stand behind my claim that UN is not that important on which I based the rest. UN diplomacy is a game that humans play. A game that affects reality, but indirectly and weekly.

Maz214 to BlueController

 The complexities you outlined might in the end play a role in this shell game we call the UN. That somehow while these countries voted in support of a resolution against Israel knowing in advance a veto was forthcoming and this vote will serve their political interests while the veto protects their economic interests.  They will play the political card but do not want to disturb the economic cart at the same time. I don't doubt this game involves such self interest thinking.  This is probably a better explanation than PurpleDog analysis that the veto ultimately helps the institution of the UN.                                                                   When in reality, this veto protects the economic interests of other UN members - and gives them political cover. In the end, it is a convoluted shell game nations states play that involves game theory. Even beyond that, the UN is a tool that serves to camouflage political reality not shape it reality not shape it.

BlueController to Maz214

Now to "Keep in mind they are the victims of occupation and oppression".

It takes even more than that to study when the  just two states solution was the first proposed an whose stance has been what. Or to analyze who enjoys support to what extent between their population, and what the peope want because of complexity required, it is the part            

people more often fit the facts to their view of the   world rather than the other way around. It is easy and is considered noble to take the side of the weak and oppressed(here I cannot stop myself                                                

from to recall the scene of liberation of prisoners by   Don Quixote...). It is easy to keep that in mind becaus it is a simple, short piece of information. It takes more to

Charter.Keep in mind what year PLO    

founded at and what they intend to liberate. It takes It takes even more

to read a few long sentences from  Hamas.

Maz214 to BlueController

 Facts are Israel maintains the longest running military occupation in modern history. Facts are Israel claims - and I tend to agree, they possess some of the brightest minds all this intelligence - which can unlock the complex mysteries of nature and in the world.  It begs the question, with - why military occupation, oppression and imprisonment are the only solutions biology - to date failed to resolve the simple question - and it is VERY SIMPLE all the complexities and all the culpability of Arabs states and Palestinians this smart start up nation can up with? Not discounting everything you said,themselves, why no humane MODERN answer to this old question of HUMAN RIGHTS we can remove racial component. The answer is religion.  A state built on a religious identity and and self-determination?  The answer is clear. Obviously, it is not racism because many Sephardi are of Arab descent so to me. How Judea and Israel hated each other to no end and fought each other -- religious supremacy is one that will inevitably be in a perpetual war until it's demise. The fact this history lesson from the bible is missed is amusing undivided city - or eternal this and that while 3.5 million of inhabitants are and made alliances with the enemies of the other - but today Zionism keeps

selling this mythical unity between the "Jewish people" - or behind walls and fences denied basic human rights.  Sorry, I think Jews are smarter than that.

PurpleDog to Maz214

and finally, the most intriguing, " Let us put aside the question who they did help and agree such vetoes did hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace".

The cause of peace could enjoy a splendid victory. There could be a Palestinian state in the so called "West Bank" and Gaza

and the East Jerusalem who would absorb the Arabs identifying as Palestinians

from abroad (I do not know if you are familiar with numbers of Arab Muslim lands in 1940s-1950s as the result from the conflict. In case you do not exiles /refugees from Israel in 1948 and of the Jewish exiles/refugees form know, the share of Jewish ones that came into Israel alone was higher).

The Right of Return that they celebrate in Gaza in the Great March and which is incompatible with existence of Israel as a Jewish state and thus cannot be a part of two national states solution, is the main obstacle for peace. I dare to imagine that if there were no UNWRAH with the unique model of entitlement to an inherited refugee status and other forms of exceptional biased support and Palestinian cause promotion, the peace that I to settle things down as it took between Pakistan and India, or less, since the described would become reality before I was born. It would take the same time

scale is smaller.

Maz214 to

PurpleDog

 I don't disagree with your narrative to a degree, but I do think you overly under

estimate the role Israel plays in peace making or lack of it. As a regional superpower

and the backing of a global power, despite all the misdeeds by the other side, reality that makes peace closer at hand than more distant. That is the problem. due to their ignorance, hatred and vengeful proclivities, it has the power to shape No Pollyannish  viewpoint from my end but after the 6 days war the hold on the land was for leverage until the Arabs came Israel in my view has made moves that keeps peace from becoming a reality. You tell me, was it not enunciated for years by previous Israeli governments that will things be different? You cannot underestimate the radicalization of to their senses? That was the game plan, the policy and had Israel stuck to that policy, how would things be different? Had Rabin not been assassinated how religion, the reaction of the other side was predictable, they go full blown  Islamo with Hamas. Now this conflict has Zionism. It has become Messianic and religious based and less reality based. As Israel  turns more fanatical towards

help us allf bias is like the turned into my God is better than your God. And I say to that, God                                                                           

France to recognize Palestinian state if international peace conference fails

An archive photo from August 24, 2013, shows Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, right, and France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius shaking hands following their meeting in Ramallah REUTERS PHOTO

REUTERS

JERUSALEM. The proposal on Friday by French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius for an international peace conference was the latest sign of Western frustration over the absence of movement toward a two-state solution since the collapse of U.S.-brokered negotiations in 2014.

Fabius said that if the French plan did not break the deadlock, Paris would recognise a Palestinian state.

Such a step would raise concern in Israel that other European countries, also long opposed to its settlement-building in occupied territory, would follow suit.

In public remarks to his cabinet, Netanyahu did not explicitly reject the notion of an international conference - an aide said Israel would examine such a request once it was received - but he made clear that reported details of the plan made it a non-starter.

Netanyahu said a "threat" to recognize a Palestinian state if France's peace efforts did not succeed constituted "an incentive to the Palestinians to come along and not compromise".

"I assess that there will be a sobering up regarding this matter," Netanyahu added. "In any event, we will make effort so that there is a sobering up here, and our position is very clear: We are prepared to enter direct negotiation without preconditions and without dictated terms."

On Saturday, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas welcomed the French proposal, telling an African summit in Ethiopia that "the status quo cannot continue".

But Washington responded with caution to the French move, saying it continued to prefer that Israel and the Palestinians reach an agreement on final-status issues through direct talks.

While aware the initiative may struggle to get off the ground, French officials said Paris had a responsibility to act now in the face of ongoing Israeli settlement activity and the prospect of continued diplomatic inaction as the United States focuses on a presidential election in November.

And, the officials said, Netanyahu had gone a step too far in accusing U.N. Secretary of State Ban Ki-moon of giving a "tailwind to terrorism" by laying some of the blame for four months of stabbings and car rammings by Palestinians at Israel's door. Ban angered Israel by saying last week that it is "human nature to react to occupation".

The United States, European Union - Israel's closest allies - have also issued unusually stern criticism of Israel in recent weeks, reflecting their own frustration with the policies of Netanyahu's right-wing government.

The criticism, particularly about the settlements, where some 550,000 Jews live in around 250 communities scattered across the West Bank and East Jerusalem, has raised Palestinian hopes that world powers might finally be minded to support a U.N. resolution condemning Israel's policy outright.

Netanyahu's chutzpa knows no bound

Here we go again, Prime Minister Netanyahu blasts UN Secretary General Ban for comments he made on the recent violence. In translation, Netanyahu didn't like to hear the bitter truth. What is all the fuss about? Here is what Ban said:

Ban called for equal justice for both Israelis and Palestinians alike who commit such crimes.

"Palestinian frustration is growing under the weight of a half century of occupation and the paralysis of the peace process. Some have taken me to task for pointing out this indisputable truth. Yet, as oppressed peoples have demonstrated throughout the ages, it is human nature to react to occupation, which often serves as a potent incubator of hate and extremism," he said.

The UN chief said that "Progress towards peace requires a freeze of Israel’s settlement enterprise."

"Continued settlement activities are an affront to the Palestinian people and to the international community. They rightly raise fundamental questions about Israel’s commitment to a two-state solution," he said.

He also addressed the situation in the Gaza Strip, condemning Hamas rocket fire, and warning that the humanitarian situation in Gaza remains perilous.  "I continue to strongly believe that conditions in Gaza pose a severe threat to long-term peace and security in the region"

I don't see anything here other than the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth. In response to Ban' statement, Netanyahu continues to repeat the canard that Palestinian violence is because "they want to murder Jews for being Jews".  Not because there is a suffocating illegal occupation that seems to be in perpetuity or because their lands and rights are being denied to them but because "they want to murder Jews for being Jews". 

A tiresome rhetorical exercise devoid of substance of which we all know he is quite good at.  

Netanyahu goes on to say:

The secretary-general's remarks provide a tailwind for terror. There is no justification for terror. Those Palestinians who murder do not want to build a state, they want to destroy a state and they say this openly,"

To me this statement is the height of chutzpah. Somehow the remarks of the Secretary General is providing the "tailwind for terror" not the actions of Israel? It is difficult to comprehend the level of hubris and denial in the head of that man. He sees ZERO culpability for Israel. This has been his routine for years - to blame everyone under the sun on the deteriorating situation and completely ignore where most of the responsibility truly lies - in his hands.  

He continues with his insolent tone, this time directed at the UN institution:

"The United Nations long ago lost its neutrality and its moral force, and the secretary's remarks do no improve its standing."

The standing of Israel has hardly improved under his leadership. In fact, poll after poll continue to show Israel is becoming less favorable and more isolated.

Let me also add, the Palestinians are not free from any blame. Their grievances are legitimate and they do have the moral high ground in this regard - and international law is on their side. Violence will only serve Israeli interest. They need to stop the violence. They need to resist peacefully, no doubt, they need to unite, no doubt, and they need to seek support from wherever they can find it. Most of all, they need to have a plan that all parties can and must unite under. This is difficult to impossible to do with the Palestinian factions so divided.

It is a tough dilemma to be in but the Palestinians need to find a way to unite.

Otherwise, Israel will continue to play out this tragedy for another century. They are clever and their job is made so much easier with idiots like Fatah and Hamas.

The next slogan coming out of Israel will be, " there are already two states".

Recent violence in the occupied territories and Israel

The violence continues unabated in Israel and the occupied territories.  On one side you have settlers terrorizing the Palestinians and the IDF doing it's usual measure of shootings - in the name of security( of course), and on the Palestinian side they have gone mad with their stabbing spree attacking Jews - in the name of resistance( of course) - and one wonders where will this end? The death toll to date is 161 Palestinians dead versus 22 Israeli's.

Let me express how sickened I am by reading about this latest wave of violence. How can it be a 13 yr old girl actually set out to stab an Israeli guard? Is that to be believed - was the knife planted next to her - but nevertheless, it is very shocking and highlights the madness that is the occupied territories. Here is what the headlines say regarding this incident:

They go on to report that:

Jerusalem: 

A 13-year-old Palestinian girl tried to stab an Israeli guard at a West Bank settlement Saturday and was shot dead, the latest bloodshed in a months-long wave of attacks, police said.

Since I can't verify the authenticity of the second photo, was it photo-shopped or not, not going to comment on what happened but clearly one has to question whether or not there weren't other means to subdue her.

If this was not bad enough, days later anther bizarre headline appeared:

Palestinian twin sisters accused of making bombs for attacks

One 18-year-old learned how to make explosives from online videos, second helped hide them in their house, Shin Bet says

Israeli security forces arrested 18-year-old bomb-making twin sisters from Shwaika, outside the Palestinian city of Tulkarem in the West Bank last month, the Shin Bet security service announced Monday

Just when you think it's couldn't get any more crazier, another stabbing incident occurs the next day:

I have only scratched the surface. There are many more incidents where Palestinians stab or attempt to stab Israeli's and where the IDF is shooting Palestinians.  Some of course are justifiable shootings but many are not - and there are many cases of settlers terrorizing the natives. No way to sugarcoat this unfolding tragedy and madness. The Palestinians while under international law do have the right to resist the occupation such suicidal acts by women and children going up against armed Israeli's in no way shape or form can be justified. It is madness. It is counterproductive. It is futile and suicidal. It is dumb and stupid. Most of all, it will not advance the Palestinian cause or bring the two people closer to peace or ending the occupation. If Palestinian leadership is so inept not to offer their people a solution other than send their women and children out on desperate suicide missions then it is time to get new leadership.  There has to be a better way. I intentionally refuse to get into the moral question behind Palestinian attacks - and God knows it troubles me to no end to see any civilians killed - but the moral card is best left to those in a position to make moral judgements. I see two people tied in a knot that neither can escape from on their own. Although, I see Israel with the power to shape reality and facts on grounds - for better or worse - and sadly since it's being ruled by right wingers it's being shaped to the detriment of both Israeli's and Palestinians. I see the Palestinians hopelessly dysfunctional, traumatized and damaged ( the same can be said of Israeli's) as a people with failed leadership. They are the gang that can't shoot straight even with 20/20 vision. They always miss the forest from the trees. Israel is not giving them a way out. What follows is madness. You are watching madness before your very eyes. Israeli's unfortunately will not see such acts as anything more than "they want to kills the Jews". Some Israeli's will scream out we told you the so called " peace and quiet" is an illusion. People like Gideon Levy or Amira Haas or those who for years saw the suffering on the other side knew this day was coming. Yet, Israeli's will do what they always do,  shut their eyes, time to be scared and flex more muscles - and of course time to "mow the lawn".