Maz2214
America and Israel complaining of bias at the UN is like the mafia complaining about crime. It is a joke! Here are some facts, of the 72 total vetoes the US ever used, 43 were used to protect Israel. Go figure!
BlueController to
Maz214
Here, I have figured it for you - if US were not using the veto as a part of the game, the anti-Israel bias would go beyond ridiculous and the lack of credibility and the crisis of trust and abandonment UN goes through now would come sooner and much harder. These votes benefited UN more than Israel, protecting the former from itself and hyperinflation of its already worthless resolutions.
Maz214 to BlueController
The only worthless resolution is UN resolution 181 many would argue. To follow your logic all the 43 vetoes were
legitimate because Israel has never done anything wrong. I know you believe that and I can't help the fact some can't see beyond their schnozzle and believe they are God's chosen. The truth is the UN is corrupt and it was corrupt back in 1947 as well. We can agree on that right?
BlueController to
Maz214
I do not remember the worthless UN resolutions by numbers. do not know how following my logic ascends Israel to the status of a saint entity. I do not know how the God's chosen fixation must do something with that or with me.
I also do not really know if UN was corrupt in 1947. What I do know, and it just might be relevant to your next question, that UN has no power under its own regulation to create independent states. So the idea that UN created state of Israel belongs to the same department of "Creation of
Israel was the result of Holocaust". In the alphabetical index, that department shows between 'Br...' and 'Bt..."
Maz214 to
BlueControler
Fair enough, I did not address your point directly. The notion those vetoes did more to help the UN as a institution than the state of Israel is absurd. Let us put aside the question who they did help and agree
such vetoes did hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace? Keep in mind they are the victims of occupation and oppression. It is easy to argue those vetoes hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace. The UN charter states: The UN Charter sets out four main purposes: Maintaining worldwide peace and security. Developing relations
among nations. Fostering cooperation between nations in order to solve
economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian international problems". The vetoes served to derail meeting those
objectives. Some will argue because
Israel can count on American veto it does not need to make peace much less feel
the need to end the longest running military occupation in modern times. The vetoes serve as a get out of jail
card. It stands to reason if criminals
get a get out of jail card crime will be much higher than it is today.
BlueController to
Maz214
Your last claim holds. Human behavior can be that simple in simple circumstances. However, the step of induction to American veto as the get out of jail card fits into more complex situation. A situation in which UN activities are not only feedback mechanism, and far from being in the few top ones. There are trade and other ties with many countries in the world that would be immediately affected. I do not know how you view the UN role in the world, I do not see countries taking orders from it. Israel sells and buys by billions with countries like Britain and EU members which are known to be very sensitive on the subject of
Palestinian rights violations. Trade ties with Muslim countries amount to billions
as well. Part Turkey and Azerbajan (strategic partner on Iranian border) with
whom the ties are open, there are others, even those with whom there are no
diplomatic relations, who buy goods after they are white-labeled. The former
keep an eye on the Palestinian affairs. The later could be gone in an
eye-blink.
American Jews become more and more pro-Palestinian. Inexcusable escalation could turn away even those who are not indoctrinated. That could eventually undermine the American support we talk about altogether.Not last but definitely, absolutely not the least, even if we stay in the egoistic plan and keep the morals out of the simplistic behavior model, enough Israelis are smart enough to realize that crimes against others are danger to ones' own society.
PurpleDog to BlueController
I must admit that I was disappointed to see extent of support of El'or Azariya ('the Hebron Shooter)' . On the other hand I could see another time correlation between success, intelligence on one hand, and decency , morality and comprehension how acceptance of such a crime cold quickly derail our society, on the other. BTW, this correlation is how I explain the frequent differences in understanding of situation of Israel and its needs between leaders of the world and the more loud and easily agitated parts of
their nations.In the bottom line, I stand behind my claim that UN is not that
important on which I based the rest. UN diplomacy is a game that humans play. A
game that affects reality, but indirectly and weekly.
Maz214 to BlueController
The complexities you outlined might in the end play a role in this shell game we call the UN. That somehow while these countries voted in support of a resolution against Israel knowing in advance a veto was forthcoming and this vote will serve their political interests while the veto protects their economic interests. They will play the political card but do not
want to disturb the economic cart at the same time. I don't doubt this game
involves such self interest thinking.
This is probably a better explanation than PurpleDog analysis that the veto ultimately helps the institution of the UN. When in reality, this veto protects the economic interests of other UN members - and gives them political cover. In the end, it is a convoluted shell game nations states play that involves game theory. Even beyond that, the UN is a tool that serves to camouflage political reality not shape it reality not shape it.
BlueController to
Maz214
Now to "Keep in mind they are the victims of occupation and oppression".
It takes even more than that to study when the just two states solution was the first proposed an whose stance has been what. Or to analyze who enjoys support to what extent between their population, and what the peope want because of complexity required, it is the part
people more often fit the facts to their view of the world rather than the other way around. It is easy and is considered noble to take the side of the weak and oppressed(here I cannot stop myself
from to recall the scene of liberation of prisoners by Don Quixote...). It is easy to keep that in mind becaus it is a simple, short piece of information. It takes more to
Charter.Keep in mind what year PLO
founded at and what they intend to liberate. It takes It takes even more
to read a few long sentences from Hamas.
Maz214 to BlueController
Facts are Israel maintains the longest running military occupation in modern history. Facts are Israel claims - and I tend to agree, they possess some of the brightest minds all this intelligence - which can unlock the complex mysteries of nature and in the world. It begs the question, with - why military occupation, oppression and imprisonment are the only solutions biology - to date failed to resolve the simple question - and it is VERY SIMPLE all the complexities and all the culpability of Arabs states and Palestinians this smart start up nation can up with? Not discounting everything you said,themselves, why no humane MODERN answer to this old question of HUMAN RIGHTS we can remove racial component. The answer is religion. A state built on a religious identity and and self-determination? The answer is clear. Obviously, it is not racism because many Sephardi are of Arab descent so to me. How Judea and Israel hated each other to no end and fought each other -- religious supremacy is one that will inevitably be in a perpetual war until it's demise. The fact this history lesson from the bible is missed is amusing undivided city - or eternal this and that while 3.5 million of inhabitants are and made alliances with the enemies of the other - but today Zionism keeps
selling this mythical unity between the "Jewish people" - or
PurpleDog to Maz214
and finally, the most intriguing, " Let us put aside the question who they did help and agree such vetoes did hurt the Palestinians and the cause of peace".
The cause of peace could enjoy a splendid victory. There could be a Palestinian state in the so called "West Bank" and Gaza
and the East Jerusalem who would absorb the Arabs identifying as Palestinians
from abroad (I do not know if you are familiar with numbers of Arab Muslim lands in 1940s-1950s as the result from the conflict. In case you do not exiles /refugees from Israel in 1948 and of the Jewish exiles/refugees form
The Right of Return that they celebrate in Gaza in the Great March and which is incompatible with existence of Israel as a Jewish state and thus cannot be a part of two national states solution, is the main obstacle for peace. I dare to imagine that if there were no UNWRAH with the unique model of entitlement to an inherited refugee status and other forms of exceptional biased support and Palestinian cause promotion, the peace that I to settle things down as it took between Pakistan and India, or less, since the described would become reality before I was born. It would take the same time
scale is smaller.
Maz214 to
PurpleDog
I don't disagree with your narrative to a degree, but I do think you overly under
estimate the role Israel plays in peace making or lack of it. As a regional superpower
and the backing of a global power, despite all the misdeeds by the other side, reality that makes peace closer at hand than more distant. That is the problem. due to their ignorance, hatred and vengeful proclivities, it has the power to shape
No Pollyannish viewpoint from my end but after the 6 days war the hold on the land was for leverage until the Arabs came Israel in my view has made moves that keeps peace from becoming a reality. You
tell me, was it not enunciated for years by previous Israeli governments that will things be different? You cannot underestimate the radicalization of to their senses? That was the game plan, the policy and had Israel stuck to
that policy, how would things be different? Had Rabin not been assassinated how religion, the reaction of the other side was predictable, they go full blown Islamo with Hamas. Now this conflict has Zionism. It has become Messianic and religious based and less reality based. As
Israel turns more fanatical towards
help us allf bias is like the turned into my God is better than your God. And I say to that, God
