Joe420k • 20 hours ago Unfortunately, it appears things can only get worse from here. Abbas has lost control and seems resigned to follow in the footsteps of his predecessor. I feared this would happen as Israel continued to marginalize him. There was no appetite in Israel to give an inch and what follows is what you see today. Settlement or peace and we all know which choice Israel has continued to make. Despite what Israeli's think of Abbas, and I personally despise the man for his countless bad decisions and tyrannical rule, but he has kept things relatively quite on his end. From the perspective of the Palestinians, he delivered nothing to them but a continuation of more of the same. This is a untenable situation when the Palestinians see no progress towards ending the occupation or in the least settlement expansion is halted. Don't hate the messenger(me) for stating the obvious. Everyone (EU,UN, USA) have been saying to Israel, failure to make progress on the "peace process" will only lead to violence eventually. Such voices were told to shut up - and in many cases mocked as appeasers or worse, called anti-Semites. The situation will unravel in a heartbeat. Abbas will be deposed or at his age will collapse at any minute from all the stress. There is no backup leader. And with Abbas gone the PA security structure collapses. Cells will start to operate on their own and they will metastasize. As we are seeing in Gaza, ISIS cells will start to operate in the West Bank. To see how bad things could get, just look at Syria or Iraq. Wait a minute, you don't need to look that far, what am I talking about, intifada 1 and 2 should be fresh in the minds of many in Israel and beyond. Does Israel have the 3 strikes your out rule? Not sure how transferring 4 million to Jordan will solve anything. Israel faces the mother of all conundrums.
Lion of Judah Joe420k • 11 hours ago There isn't 4 million to begin with. Those Arabs who wish to live peacefully in Israel, the Jewish State will be allowed to do so! Those who are hostile to Israel must be forcibly removed to Tunisia or Sudan. We once exiled Arafat there and the stupid Shimon Peres invited him back again. Look how that ended!
Gee Lion of Judah • 3 hours ago Actually the Putz brought him for the first time. We did not exile him ever.
stan miller Joe420k • 17 hours ago Joe, go smoke some more of that good weed. Israel has no conundrum.
The Arabs say they must have Jerusalem and Israel will NEVER give it up. This war will not end with a peace treaty or agreement, it will end with unilateral action by Israel. I don't know if 4 million will be transferred, but some will be and Israel will declare her borders.
Harold Howe stan miller • 17 hours ago The entire rest of the world objects to and disagrees with you.You sound like a pre-WWII German who thought Germany was entitled to impose its will on Europe.Israel is in an even more untenable position....it has no allies at all on the Palestinian question.Lion of Judah Harold Howe • 11 hours ago Do you think that after centuries of persecution from the rest of the world, in particular, the Catholic church, that Israel is really bothered what anyone else thinks, because we don't!Harold Howe Lion of Judah • 9 hours ago You're confirming what I said about Israel's position.Are you suicidal?
Dmitri Harold Howe • 12 hours ago The only issue with your statement is that Europe never belonged to Germany. Historically I mean.Jerusalem on the other hand, was always a city of Israel. People of Israel did lose the city few times during the history, but never less it is their city.If you have to compare somebody with Germany pre-WWII then it has to be a Palestinians. They want something that was never theirs and they are prepared to use terror and kill to achieve that. And actively engaged in doing so.Harold Howe Dmitri • 9 hours ago "....Jerusalem on the other hand, was always a city of Israel...."The Jews were expelled by the Romans over 2000 years ago, and E Jerusalem, including the Old City, were never part of the State of Israel until Israel tried to annex them after the 1967 war, something that isn't recognized by the rest of the world.You seem totally oblivious to 2000 years of history, including the Crusades, which involved the battle between Christians and Muslims for Jerusalem.Dmitri Harold Howe • 8 hours ago All the Judea and Samaria were part of Israel. Unlike the Palestine which never was even a country. Unlike a Palestine which never was even a country and don't even have it's own name, Israel was there since the very beginning.Look up the New Kingdom of Egypt Empire which dating back all the way to 1570–1544 BC.Back then Muslim as religion did not even exist.You seem to be forgetting that Islam one of the world's younger religionsSo who is oblivious here.
Bob Ben-Gurion Joe420k • 19 hours ago Yours is an absolutely excellent, as well courageous analysis!And this portion of it absolutely knocks-the-spots-off where the chaos is heading:"The situation will unravel in a heartbeat. Abbas will be deposed or at
his age will collapse at any minute from all the stress. There is no
backup leader. And with Abbas gone the PA security structure collapses."Please keep up the truly EXCELLENT work! This board NEEDS more of you.
N.L. Shriber • 20 hours ago see moreThe impossible Abbas / By David HorovitzOp-ed: While ostensibly warning against a religious war, the PA leader has deliberately fueled the flames of the new, murderous Al-Aqsa-centered terror waveBenjamin Netanyahu can’t be an easy prime minister for Mahmoud Abbas to deal with. Unlike, say, Ehud Olmert.Netanyahu hasn’t offered to relinquish Israeli sovereignty in the Old City in favor of an international tribunal, like Olmert did. Netanyahu has at times intimated some readiness for compromise in Jerusalem, but he hasn’t offered to divide the city into Israeli and Palestinian neighborhoods, like Olmert did. He’s indicated a readiness for West Bank territorial compromise, but not for a return to the pre-1967 lines with one-for-one land swaps, like Olmert did.Except that Abbas didn’t accept Olmert’s dramatic, unprecedented 2008 peace offer. As Olmert subsequently detailed, Abbas failed to respond to it at all, even though it met all his professed territorial goals for a Palestinian state.In a November 1, 2012, interview with Israel’s Channel 2 television, Abbas swore that, territorially, he had no demands on pre-1967 Israel. “Palestine now for me is ’67 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital. This is now and forever,” he said. So why not take the Olmert deal?In that same interview, Abbas declared that although he was born in Safed, in northern Israel, he did not feel he had a right to go back and again make it his home. “It’s my right to see it, but not to live there,” he said. So why, in the ill-fated John Kerry-brokered 2013-14 attempt at peacemaking, did Abbas insist that a “right of return” be available to millions of Palestinian refugees and their second, third and fourth generation descendants, a “right” that, if exercised, would constitute the death of Israel as a Jewish state?Finally in that TV interview, Abbas vowed that so long as he was in power, there would be no third armed intifada uprising against Israel. “Never,” he swore. “We don’t want to use terror. We don’t want to use force. We don’t want to use weapons. We want to use diplomacy. We want to use politics. We want to use negotiations. We want to use peaceful resistance. That’s it.” So why, a year ago at the UN, did he falsely and despicably accuse Israel of pursuing a policy of “genocide in Gaza” — a charge guaranteed to ratchet up Arab and especially Palestinian hostility to Israel? And why, last week at the UN, while disingenuously warning Israel against transforming the conflict “from a political to a religious one,” did he intensify his campaign to do precisely that — with predictably murderous consequences?Last Wednesday in New York, Abbas culminated a series of incendiary allegations in recent months about purported Israeli plots against al-Aqsa Mosque by telling the world and, most relevantly, his own watching people that, in Jerusalem, “extremist Israeli groups are committing repeated, systematic incursions upon Al-Aqsa Mosque.” The Israeli government, he went on, is pursuing a “scheme” to impose “a new reality” at the Temple Mount, “allowing extremists, under the protection of Israeli occupying forces and accompanying ministers and Knesset members, to enter the Mosque at certain times, while preventing Muslim worshipers from accessing and entering the Mosque at those times and freely exercising their religious rights.” In fact, Israel, after capturing the Mount in 1967, capturing the holiest site in Judaism, chose to permit the Muslim authorities to continue to administer its holy places, and barred Jews from praying there. These are arrangements it maintains to this day; arrangements it is, to put it mildly, hard to imagine any other conquering force in such circumstances initiating and preserving.Those who retain some sympathy for Abbas note that he is, at time of writing, maintaining his Palestinian Authority security forces’ coordination with their Israeli counterparts. They say it’s hard for him to condemn the latest acts of Palestinian terrorism because he is already widely seen by his public as an Israeli stooge. They argue that it is not Abbas inciting Palestinian terrorism, but rather Arab media reports and a relentless social media emphasis on alleged Israeli attacks at Al-Aqsa.But the fact is that Abbas has never sought to counter his predecessor Yasser Arafat’s assertion that there were no Jewish temples in Jerusalem and thus, by extension, there is no historic legitimacy for Jewish sovereignty here. The fact is that Abbas has allowed no sense of Jewish connection to the Temple Mount to complicate the Palestinian narrative of Israeli-Jewish illegitimacy there. The fact is that Abbas never moved decisively to prevent vicious anti-Israeli incitement in the Palestinian media. The fact is that Abbas’s PA continued the practice of honoring terrorists and “martyrs.”The fact is that Abbas, whom many in Israel have even after 2008 insistently wanted to believe is a partner for peace — including Olmert himself, to this day — has long since failed his people and ours.The fact is that Abbas has quite deliberately fueled the flames of this latest Al-Aqsa-centered terror wave.Full article:
The Times of Israel
4 Oct. 2015Joe420k N.L. Shriber • 20 hours ago The right of return is a genuine right under international law. Jews can claim it after 2,000 years but Palestinians lose it in 60 years. You don't see the idiocy of that? Having said that, Israel's response should be to make a genuine offer of COMPENSATION and throw Western visas in the mix. If Jews can make a deal with the Germans to be compensated for the Holocaust and their loss - why is it outrageous for Palestinians to be compensated for their loss? My guess is Palestinians will likely reject that as well but what is clear, Israel never made a serious attempt to rectify the injustice of the nakba. There was never a serious offer with real numbers on it. I'm guessing this post will be ridiculed - because of course, how can you compensate a people "that don't exist" to a crime "that never happened". Oh boy!!Bob Ben-Gurion Joe420k • 18 hours ago With all due respect to you (and I MEAN that) ... even a so-called "invented people" may have a difficult time trading mere lucre (or a visa to the West) for a right to return to a place they've always considered to be their own.
John Katz Joe420k • 19 hours ago So your idea of an argument is to compare squatters who became refugees after their former countries lost wars that they started, to an actual sovereign nation whose people didn't wait for any "right of return" but came back and settled the land with their blood and sweat? I really shouldn't have to explain to you the flaws in that kind of statement.N.L. Shriber Joe420k • 19 hours ago There is NO "right of return" under international law and has never been. It is a myth perpetrated by the Arabs and too many have bought into it.Harold Howe N.L. Shriber • 16 hours ago You're showing your ignorance.A/RES/194 (III)11 December 1948The General Assembly,Having considered further the situation in Palestine,1. Expresses its deep appreciation of the progress achieved through the good offices of the late United Nations Mediator in promoting a peaceful adjustment of the future situation of Palestine, for which cause he sacrificed his life; and................................11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;Lion of Judah Harold Howe • 11 hours ago The General Assembly, with which you refer to, only ever applied to the Jews of Palestine. The so called Arab Palestinians did not even exist back then, they were Jordanians!Harold Howe Lion of Judah • 9 hours ago There were actually people who lived in what is now Israel who became refugees that the General Assembly is referring to.You people seem to think that because they aren't Jews, they don't exist and never existed.To your eternal shame and disgrace.Lion of Judah Lion of Judah • 11 hours ago Now who is ignorant? Professor Howe, I really hate Revisionists!
N.L. Shriber Harold Howe • 15 hours ago UN General Assembly, by definition, does not enact international law.Who, then shows his ignorance....??Harold Howe N.L. Shriber • 14 hours ago The official Israeli position disputes the legality of the Palestinian claim based on UN Resolution 194. It blames the Arab states for
generating the Palestinian refugee problem, arguing that they ordered the refugees to flee so that Arab armies could liberate Palestine from the Zionists in 1948. Furthermore, Israel says that it could never accept the Palestinian right of return because it would fundamentally alter the Jewish character of the Israeli state.With the new wave of Israeli 'revisionist' historians uncovering more material on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and the origins of the Palestinian refugee problem, it has become clear that the mass flight of Palestinian civilians from Mandate Palestine was a strategic goal of the founders of Israel. The myth of Arab responsibility for the evacuation of the Palestinians has been debunked, and yet the Israeli government still adheres steadfastly to its position and refuses to allow the repatriation of the Palestinian refugees. Regarding Israel's argument about preserving the Jewish character of the state, two scholars have noted that '[t]he United Nations is under no more of a legal obligation to maintain Zionism in Israel than it is to maintain apartheid in South Africa' (W. Thomas Mallison & Sally V. Mallison, The Palestine Problem in International Law and World
Order, 1986).N.L. Shriber Harold Howe • 13 hours ago This is not only 90%, 95%, 99% or every 99.9% nonsense. This is full 100% nonsense!!
Lion of Judah Frank Cohen-Levin • 11 hours ago Because Arab Pals don't really exist, except in name only! You are pure fiction!N.L. Shriber Frank Cohen-Levin • 19 hours ago Since you are not Jewish, why do you write as "we"?Furthermore, there is no "right of return" in international law. Sovereign nation-states apply the right of members of their own peoples to return to their respective sovereign nation-states, but they do not do so on the basis of a universal right.John Katz Frank Cohen-Levin • 19 hours ago Because they never owned anything to "return to". If they want to take it up with the Jordanian government for gambling away the land they happened to be squatting on when Jordan tried to kill us, go ahead. We don't owe people for successfully defending ourselves.Harold Howe John Katz • 16 hours ago That's simply a silly lie. There are tens of thousands of Arab refugees from what is now present day Israel who used to live there before 1948.And Jews were only 10% or less of the population there when the Balfour Declaration was adopted.Everyone who is aware or honest knows what Zionism is.Your ignorance/dishonesty not only doesn't help your argument, it destroys whatever moral authority you people might ever have had resulting from the Holocaust.You've used up all of your goodwill.John Katz Harold Howe • 10 hours ago Well, congratulations. You failed to understand what a middle schoolers reading comprehension would have no trouble with.Harold Howe John Katz • 9 hours ago There were actually people who lived in what is now Israel who became refugees that the General Assembly is referring to.You people seem to think that because they aren't Jews, they don't exist and never existed.Your ignorance/dishonesty not only doesn't help your argument, it destroys whatever moral authority you people might ever have had resulting from the Holocaust.You've used up all of your goodwill.John Katz Harold Howe • 5 hours ago No, I seem to think that because they were nothing more than squatters with no sovereignty or control of any territory, your "occupation" is a big joke--or are you saying that Jordan should be dismantled because their squatting means they deserve the actual Palestine? Nice try on the "racism" card, by the way. Another sign of sub-par intellect.You talk about ignorance when you are ridiculously ignorant, revealed in every single post you make. You're a laughingstock who should really think about opening a history book one day.Harold Howe John Katz • 4 hours ago Your ignorance/dishonesty is stunning.At the time of the Balfour Declaration Jews were less than 10% of the population of Palestine.You're so pitifully stupid you don't realize that everybody knows what Zionism was and how it has been implemented to move Jews from all over the world to Palestine.Who do you think you're fooling?John Katz Harold Howe • an hour ago Funnily enough, you ignore that 90 percent of historic Israel and 80 percent of Palestine are now Arab countries. I don't need to fool anyone--I have facts on my side, while you appear to be operating with a double digit IQ on a diet of steady propaganda.Harold Howe John Katz • 22 minutes ago You have a desperate need to try to fool people...maybe even yourself.In 1914 Jews were only 7.8% of the population.In 1950 this percentage (covering the same area) had risen to 50.7%.
Joe420k John Katz • 19 hours ago If a Palestinian was to show you a family tree going back 500 years living in the same town and document ownership of land going back that far? Will that change your mind on your fanciful yet convenient theory that the Palestinians don't exist? The Palestinians sprang up like mushrooms exactly the same time the Jews showed up because of course wherever Jews go the Arabs love to follow - and for 1900 years prior to that the land had been empty of inhabitants? Your denials of Palestinian history puts you in the same camp as Hamas. They deny Jewish history. They are wrong and anyone who thinks like you is wrong. Pure madness reading some of the posts here who deny the very existence of the non-Jewish natives. It borders on mental illness when you deny what is staring you in the face for over 100 years. They were here. Jews arrived. Jews conquered and established a state. Now what to do with the restless natives? Study up on how the North Americans, South Americans, Australians and New Zealanders solved their restless native problem. Just be aware Geronimo surrendered in 1886, signifying the end of the war with the Indians. The Indians fought the Europeans for several centuries. They only lost because of demography - no other reason. The Europeans kept coming by the millions Can Israel do the same with it's numbers?bella25 Joe420k • 15 hours ago Israel was a country 3000 years ago - at that time islam wasn't even invented.
We all know the Jewish kings that has ruled in Israel.
Can you pls give me some names of "Palestinian" kings or prime ministers that have
ruled in "Palestine" during the 100 years?Bob Ben-Gurion Joe420k • 18 hours ago It's a pity that you can't be the PM for several years or so. I dare say that your reasoning and logic just might find a solution to the unfolding madness.John Katz Joe420k • 19 hours ago I'm not disputing that they claim ownership or did indeed squat here under Ottoman rule. I'm pointing out the simple fact that they never had a country to claim. You conveniently ignore that the majority of the actual Palestine is now Jordan, and yet you expect Israel to repatriate the refugees of wars the Arabs started. None of that is logical.Joe420k John Katz • 19 hours ago The majority of countries in the UN today didn't exist before 1948. So your argument is meaningless or nothing more than a red herring. You are smart enough to know the current nation-state is a modern concept. Based on your logic, the native Indians had no claim to the land they occupied for thousand of years because it wasn't a " country". Silly. As for Jordan, I agree with you. Palestinians should be making claims on Jordan. If Israel was smart it would remove the King and hand the keys to Abbas. The West Bank should be part of Jordan. It makes more sense and there you have the two state solution.Bob Ben-Gurion Joe420k • 18 hours ago Steady yourself, as your theories are now going a bit wobbly. To depose the King of Jordan will open the gates, and give the keys, to ISIS ... IF in fact, Israel has the requisite guts and blood needed to bring about such a scenario.John Katz Joe420k • 19 hours ago You can't have it both ways. Either history matters or it doesn't. Either way, our side is favored. If history determines who it belongs to, then we have the oldest claim. If it doesn't, then only the current situation matters, and all Israel has to do is deport the Palestinians or abandon whatever land we decide not to annex, and wall off the border.Regardless of ideals, pragmatically it's all irrelevant. There is peace with countries who were willing to make peace with Israel--there is no peace with the Palestinians because at no point in time were their leaders attempting to actually make peace.Joe420k John Katz • 18 hours ago It is you who wants it both ways. Claiming a right of return based on historical claims while denying the same right to the Palestinians even though their claim is recent not ancient in nature. History doesn't decide as we all know all borders are drawn in blood. Victors write the history books but what you fail to see is that despite all the military victories Israel has had it has not extended it's lifespan by one day as a result. Therefore, it needs a political victory - as it has with Jordan and Egypt. Your are idea of deporting them is not a solution. It only transferred the problem across the river.
John Katz Frank Cohen-Levin • 19 hours ago Stay where you want. When we finally get fed up and declare where the borders are, you're going to have to deal with it.Bob Ben-Gurion Frank Cohen-Levin • 18 hours ago With each passing day of chaos, I'm now of the mindset that you are right.
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